Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability

This discussion focused on two main issues: (1) whether to revoke the guideline status of NSPORTS and (2) proposals to improve perceived flaws in NSPORTS. There is a general consensus that the NSPORTS guideline still has broad community support, and whatever problems may exist, the community does not see them as justifying the deprecation of the guideline.

In light of this, the community considered 13 proposals for fixing perceived flaws in NSPORTS. A fundamental problem was that, by the time these proposals were made, most editors had lost interest. For example, the main proposal had over 100 editors weigh-in, but of the 13 other proposals, only two got over 65 participants, and most struggled to get even half the participation of the main proposal. While proposals with 50 participants could achieve consensus, editors tended to be evenly split on most questions.

That said, I saw consensus on two proposals. While numerically close, the weight of arguments shows a rough consensus for proposal 3 which removes participation-based criteria from NSPORTS. Proposal 5 had a substantial amount of support and participation, and there is a consensus to add an inclusion criterion for sports biographies requiring that they have at least one reference to a source which has significant coverage of the subject (which is slightly different from the original proposal 5).

Hopefully these changes improve the perceived problems of NSPORTS, and further improvements may be made by editing the policy page, holding discussions on its talk page, or starting follow-up RfCs. Extended rationales for each proposal are below. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal 1 - no consensus

This was the second-most participated-in proposal with over 70 participants. Editors debated whether NSPORTS should state that sports biographies "must" satisfy the GNG if challenged at AFD. While there is a slight majority for the proposal, discussions are not a vote, and we need to consider the arguments made and whether a sufficient level of agreement was reached. Supporters advanced two main lines of argument: (1) NSPORTS already requires that sports biographies meet the GNG and so the proposed change only documents existing practice, and (2) the guideline is not always interpreted as requiring that sports biographies meet the GNG and so the proposed change would bring existing practice in line with the overall intent. Editors in opposition countered with two main points: (3) the notability guideline (the section WP:SNG in particular) states that meeting an SNG alone may be sufficient to establish notability without the GNG, and (4) requiring sports biographies meet the GNG in addition to NSPORTS functionally eliminates NSPORTS as a guideline by undermining WP:SNG and WP:NEXIST. There is no consensus on how to resolve these policy conflicts and no consensus to implement the proposal. While the opposition is in the numerical minority, the main argument is consistent with the wider guideline at WP:N. Supporters have a slight majority, but arguments about current practice are not consistent and undermine the argument that this is a minor change reflecting an existing consensus. Given the strength of the wording proposed (i.e., "must"), a similarly strong consensus would be needed to support the change, but no such consensus emerged.There is the additional question of what to do given the lack of consensus. At a basic level, the current wording is retained, but the meaning of those words remains unresolved. After the initial close, editors argued that a 2017 RfC should be considered the status-quo interpretation, but this has practical problems. For example, that RfC occured before the WP:SNG section existed, and that current section of the notability policy contradicts the 2017 close. A more technical issue is that the proposal claimed to be implementing the status quo, and the discussion cast doubt on whether such an interpretation is in fact the status quo; "defaulting" to that interpretation would be implementing the proposal through a technicality. For now, the path forward is to leave the wording as-is and have editors and closers consider the proper interpretation on a case-by-case basis. Ideally, a new RfC or other widely-advertised discussion will clarify the relationship between guidelines in the near future. — Wug·a·po·des​ (revised 01:14, 14 March 2022 (UTC))[reply]

Proposals 3 (consensus) and 4 (no consensus)

These proposals considered NSPORTS criteria which suggest an athlete is notable if they have participated in (only) one professional event. For example, a hockey player who only played one professional game. Proposal 3 would eliminate these criteria, and proposal 4 would increase the threshold. These proposals saw reasonable participation, with about half the number of editors as the main proposal.

There is a rough consensus to eliminate participation-based criteria (except those based on olympic or similar participation). Participants refered to this is one of the main issues of the guideline, and this was also a point repeated in the main discussion. The argument is that a single professional match does not seem to guarantee that sufficient sources will exist to write a well-sourced article. By removing them, editors will need to demonstrate that other SNG criteria or the GNG are met.

Opposition to the elimination of these participation-criteria fall into two camps: no replacement and not strong enough. I gave little weight to the "no replacement"-type arguments as they miss the point of the proposal and are procedural rather than substantive concerns. To be clear on how they miss the point: the replacement is the GNG which applies to all articles; the proposal was to eliminate certain special criteria, so of course no alternative criteria were specified.

Arguments relating to increasing the threshold were covered in proposal 4 which failed to achieve consensus. The argument against this view was that any higher threshold would be arbitrary and not generalizable. There is a meaningful difference between playing 0 professional games and playing 1 professional game in all sports, but other units depend on the sport. For example, 100 games is a career in American football, but less than a season in Major League Baseball. Given the result of 4, arguments that the threshold should be increased rather than eliminated were also given less weight.

Taken together, there is a rough consensus that participation-based criteria are a problem and that the best way forward is to remove them. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal 5 - consensus

This was the best-attended proposal and had the most agreement. There is a rough consensus that sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject. This is meaningfully different from the proposal; the original proposal required that the source be present from inception, but editors in opposition pointed out the problems with this. Meeting this requirement alone does not indicate notability, but it does indicate that there are likely sufficient sources to meet the GNG. Supporters point out that it has the added benefit of reducing the number of one-sentence biographies based on database entries. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal 6 - consensus against

Editors are generally against adding a new layer of bureacracy to enforce proposal 5. A regular PROD or AFD is sufficient. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal 8 - partial consensus

This proposal was, in reality, two proposals. The first part was substantially similar to proposal 1. The second part was to replace "presumed to be notable" with "significant coverage is likely to exist". To the extent that the first part of this proposal would create a requirement that a sports biography meet the GNG (i.e., must), there is no consensus. Proposal 1 was better attended and did not find consensus, so proposal 8 is not sufficient to overturn that. With that said, editors are generally in favor of rewriting to make the lead clearer. The second part of the proposal complements that and has a clearer consensus. The purpose of a SNG is to give editors guidance on when significant coverage is likely to exist, and clarifying that requirement in the prose will help avoid misuse at AFD (a major concern brought up in the main discussion). — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals 9 and 11 - no consensus

These proposals put forth specific rewrites of the lead. A lack of sufficient participation makes a consensus hard to justify. In both cases the opposition had a slight numerical edge, but editors were largely split without a consensus. The phrasing of the lead is something that can be worked out through normal policy editing and talk page discussion. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal 10 - no consensus

This proposal would require editors to do research and provide summary statistics based on a random sample of articles within 30 days in order to justify particular sections of the guideline or else those section will be removed. This proposal had far less participation than the main proposal, and had serious practical and policy-based issues. While there were a substantial number of editors in support, the opposition was significantly stronger in terms of policy (see WP:NOTCOMPULSORY) and practical arguments. Editors had issues with using an ultimatum to write policy, and suggested that the proposed work be done in prepartion for an RfC rather than removed arbitrarily. There were also practical practical issues such as the timeframe, methodologies, and thresholds that undermine a consensus path forward. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals 2, 7, 12, and 13

These proposals were not closed by me. 2 and 7 were closed as unsuccessful during the RfC. 12 was moved to a different page. 13 was a proposal to stop having more proposals. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]